Neeraj Gupta, VP and GM Space Destinations, Sierra Space.

James Kotecki (00:16):
This is CES tech talk. I'm James Kotecki the most influential tech event in the world is back in Las Vegas, January 5th through eighth. And we are here to preview CES 2022 today the future of the final frontier, specifically enabling humanity to begin new civilizations beyond earth. It's not the opening line of a new sci-fi series. It's the tagline of a real company Sierra space. The company recently announced a partnership with blue origin to build a private space station called orbital reef. Let's find out more with Sierra space, VP and GM space destinations, Neeraj Gupta. Neeraj, I have so many questions, but first help us visualize and understand how this looks when we talk about orbital reef. Should we be thinking about the international space station for comparison?

Neeraj​ Gupta (01:11):
Yeah. Great question. And, and, uh, you know, what we're looking at a building is, is a builds off that foundation, but, you know, think of it completely. Re-imagined, uh, the, the, the way we're we're developing, this is really around, uh, the end user experience, right? Getting people access to space and, and, and any type of person can get to space. So, you know, the way ISS, uh, is developed now, it's really kind of a laboratory and space. Um, and if you've seen pictures on the interior of it, uh, you can see it's really built like a lab it's, it's got a lot of, you know, wires and connections and, uh, you know, equipment in, in the, in the middle of the, of the, uh, the hallways. Uh, this is going to be a completely different experience. This is the place you want to go to think of like a five-star resort, uh, anywhere around the world, uh, that type, you know, those types of, uh, amenities and, and significantly more capability to help really bring in the future of, of what we can do.

James Kotecki (02:09):
So I'm thinking for interior design, it's more star Trek, the next generation bless Battlestar Galactica.

Neeraj Gupta (02:14):
You got it. You got it. That's right.

James Kotecki (02:16):
But what does it look like from the outside? Is it still the same basic construction? Have you got pods and you've got giant solar panels, or does it look like,

Neeraj Gupta (02:24):
Yeah, no, that's different as well. So we start with a system called our life module, um, and it's a large inflatable system. Think of it as basically a three-story building, uh, that we can, we can put inside of a, uh, five meter fairing, uh, in and launching into space. And then it expands out to, uh, basically a three-story building 27 feet diameter by 27 feet long. So the, the pods, the, or the modules you see on the international space station are much, much smaller than that, basically a fifth of the size. So you can kind of get a, get a bit of a comparison. Uh, and so the, the way we develop this as multiple of those, uh, life modules up there, um, as well as using our, our space plane, we have, uh, uh, a system called our dream chasers space plane, uh, which helps, uh, very cargo and crew back and forth, uh, from, from the orbital reef. Uh, there are a couple other modules that are there as well, but again, think of larger sized modules, places you can, you can get multiple people, uh, in, in and out of them.

James Kotecki (03:27):
So why are you building this?

Neeraj Gupta (03:30):
Yeah, good question. Well, the reason we're building it is, is really because we see a really vibrant new space economy developing we're right on the precipice of where we see a lot of, uh, interest in space. You can see it all over the place with a lot of investment in, in the sector now I, and, and really

James Kotecki (03:51):
In the space, in the

Neeraj Gupta (03:53):
Space that's right. Yeah, exactly. You gotta put yourself. Exactly. Um, no, so, you know, we, we, uh, uh, we really do see a vibrant economy there. Uh, developing space has really been dominated by governments, uh, over the last, you know, 20, 30, 40 years. Uh, and, and really what we're seeing is we're right on the edge of turning this over to a commercial, uh, usage. And you see all these different types of technologies from fiber optics to in space manufacturing, to things we can use on the ground. Having people go to space, you see all this tourism, excitement, uh, people now traveling in there, the inspiration, uh, for, um, uh, mission that just just happened and, and where we had the first, you know, non astronauts flying around the world. Uh, so this is, is really a big area that that's starting to develop. And, and that's really the reason why, cause we see this as, as really the natural extension of the, of the global economy.

James Kotecki (04:50):
So the space station, orbital reef, it sounds like is for anyone who wants to go to space for any number of reasons, you could have tourists, you could have governments, you could have private companies that want to conduct experiments in a weightless environment. Is it, is it really that broad of an audience that you're targeting?

Neeraj Gupta (05:07):
It really is. You said that perfectly it's really for anybody and we're trying to make space accessible for all, for all. Uh, not just for governments, not just for, for the, for the ultra rich, but for anybody. You know, our goal is to have thousands and millions of people living and working in space, uh, and, and, uh, be able to, to really experience a experience that I, like you said, you know, there's there, it's really open to whatever you want to do in space, uh, from, from, uh, if somebody has a killer app of, of, uh, developing a new technology that can only be done in microgravity, we want to be able to enable, uh, enable that development, uh, as well as, like you said, the tourism continue, uh, research. We think there's a lot of, a lot of, uh, secrets that can be unlocked in space. You know, there's a lot of research around, uh, pharmaceuticals and, and, and, uh, uh, the, the life sciences and, uh, you know, uh, cancer, medicine, medications, things like that. Right. Uh, and, and really space offers a lot of ability to, to unlock some of those things. We haven't been able to,

James Kotecki (06:14):
You know, you mentioned that now space is no longer the province of just governments, but it does bring up an interesting question about government regulation and law when it comes to something in space. So if you've got people from multiple countries who are living and working in a space station, are there existing laws or legal frameworks that actually govern how that kind of society operates?

Neeraj Gupta (06:35):
Yeah. They they're in work, so they don't necessarily exist, but we're, we're working, working through exactly what those regulations look like. And frankly, every country has some, some different regulations around them. We're working with countries around the world to, to develop what that looks like.

James Kotecki (06:51):
So, um, tell me a little bit more about how you're building this on the ground and how it's going to actually launch. So it's a bunch of inflatable modules. Are these, is there a set limit to the size that this thing can be, or can you kind of keep adding modules and definitely as this kind of space-faring community grows?

Neeraj Gupta (07:10):
Yeah. So it's a combination of, of these in inflatable modules, as well as some hard shell modules, uh, and the way we develop it is so that it is modular and you can, you can really extend it as much as you want. Uh, so we've got a, what we call a core module where we can attach multiple additional modules to it. And really there's no, there's no, uh, physical constraint, uh, to be able to add more and more of those modules together. So you can think of it as, as really limitless possibilities of extending how big you can make it in one location or potentially multiple locations.

James Kotecki (07:45):
Wow. Um, what other assumptions have you had to rethink, or maybe put a different way, have you been able to rethink, because you're no longer tethered to, this is a government entity doing a kind of public sector facing job.

Neeraj Gupta (08:01):
Yeah. You know, it, it opens up a lot of different things you couldn't previously do, you know, because of, uh, of the government nature of things like ISS, uh, going to a commercial system really allows us to think about how do we, how do we, you know, make a real tourist experience, uh, around, uh, around the system, right? What do people want to do when they get there? You know, when, when you have a government run facility, while it's done, as we're, we're going to go do science, we're going to go do research. We have a specific mission in mind. When you go to the beach, you don't necessarily have a specific mission in mind except for enjoying what's there. So we started thinking about, well, how do you make it a, a place where we're tourism can, can really flourish? Um, you can also start thinking about things around IP and being able to protect IP.

Neeraj Gupta (08:53):
So like you said, developing different, different products in space. Uh, that's something that you can't do now because of the way, uh, the, uh, the international space station is set up, uh, you know, independent companies. Um, it, it's, it's much more difficult to, to be able to, to, to retain your IP. Uh, the other part is how you manufacturing space, uh, different things you, you manufacture can sometimes have different types of, uh, uh, byproducts and things like that, that, that, you know, maybe need gassing or outgassing, or, or venting of the system. Uh, well, we can do that. We can now do that with a free flying space station, especially the way we've made this modular. Uh, we can really enable some of those, those systems that you can think about industries that are high polluting industries on the, on the ground. Now we can move some of those things to space, get them off of, get them off the ground. Still, we get the benefit of them, uh, but not do the damage to our environment.

James Kotecki (09:51):
So in some cases it would actually be less polluting to send up the space plane and go to the space station and produce those kinds of things in space than it even would be to, to not launch that, but to do it on the ground. That's

Neeraj Gupta (10:03):
Right. Exactly.

James Kotecki (10:05):
Before we go any further here, I have to ask a question that I'm sure most people listening to this are thinking, when will this be ready? Give me some timelines, uh, for some notions of, of tangibly when we can actually expect to see this come to fruition.

Neeraj Gupta (10:18):
Yeah. It seems like it'd be a long way away, but really it's not. It's, uh, we're, we're looking at before the end of the decade. Uh, so late 2020s is when we're, uh, when we're planning to have it up and operating.

James Kotecki (10:29):
In the classic tradition of a space for an soundbites right before this decade is out. That's right.

Neeraj Gupta (10:34):
Exactly.

James Kotecki (10:37):
Um, so, uh, will there be any kind of, uh, health restrictions or age restrictions? I mean, my, my seven year old, I guess, will be a little bit older by the end of the decade, but I'm sure he'd love to go to space. What we see. I mean, just speaking of star Trek, what we see kind of families going in space together. I mean, if I'm a tourist, I want to go with my family, I suppose.

Neeraj Gupta (10:56):
Yeah, absolutely. Um, no, you know, we're looking at allowing space for anybody, um, from the young to, to, to anybody who may be a little bit older, um, a w you know, these, these, uh, missions can be, or these, these, you know, tourist excursions can be, uh, on the week of days to the week to two weeks, uh, and come back. And so really, there's not a lot of restrictions on, on who can, who can go. Um, we're doing a lot to develop, uh, what type of training that person might need on the ground. And we will actually provide that training as well. Um, but really there's not any restrictions.

James Kotecki (11:33):
So tell me about some of the hypothetical experiences that a tourist in space might be able to have.

Neeraj Gupta (11:40):
Yeah. You, you know, you can think of a lot of experiences. And one of the things that we're we're developing is, uh, I think called our Astro garden, uh, technology, which is really growing plants in space. So think about a restaurant in, in space, you'll be able to eat, eat, you know, food that you grew in, in, uh, in space and, and have a view of, uh, of the earth while you're doing it. Um, which is, I, I think it's pretty fixed spectacular thing. When I think about it, uh, you know, also experiences we're looking at, you know, you want to experience space for space, so you get the microgravity and floating around and doing things, things like that as well. Um, but also maybe, maybe even get going outside of the space station, uh, you know, what they call extra view vehicular activities. Eva is basically, you know, getting in a space suit and getting outside and doing, uh, doing a spacewalk. Um, we're working with, with companies that are, uh, looking at different types of ways to do that. Not necessarily with, with the space suits, but it can be in a shirtsleeve environment. So there's a lot of different, different pieces you can do around that.

James Kotecki (12:43):
So what you're describing sounds amazing, super exciting. I believe you, but I almost want to figure out like more ways to actually prove out that this is really going to happen by the end of the decade. So let's talk economics, like, let's talk what this will actually cost. And honestly, frankly, like how you make money, because I think if we can understand how the economics might make sense, it might give everybody kind of more confidence to understand that this is actually really happening.

Neeraj Gupta (13:07):
Yeah, absolutely. Um, so, you know, the, the economics around how much it costs you, it costs significantly less than what the ISS bill, you know, the ISS was, was, uh, you know, over a hundred billion dollars to go, go build. It were less than a magnet, the one order of magnitude, less than that, uh, to go to go put this in orbit. So you can, you know, we take in really advantages of all the, all the things we we use every day and frankly probably take for granted every day, but they're really enabling for what we can do in space. A lot of the automation that you see every single day, your home automation, I all the edge computing, all the things that, that, that, uh, is available to us on, on the ground. Um, we can now use in space, really helps us on the operation side of this and really bringing down the costs.

Neeraj Gupta (13:55):
Um, the, when, when you, uh, talk about the, you know, kind of the revenue streams and, and, and how does that kind of work overall? Well, we actually see, you know, if you look at what people are paying to go, uh, put their names on lists to go do a few minutes in space from a tourism perspective and, uh, you know, what, what it would be to, to put, you know, uh, circled the earth, a handful of, uh, of, uh, of times, um, comparatively we're offering things like a three days, day or two weeks day, uh, in a, in a five star hotel. Uh, so, so we've done the, you know, rerun the numbers on, on what those are. We've got, um, uh, folks that are interested, uh, in, in, uh, being, uh, being tourists on, on, uh, uh, on the, on a space station.

Neeraj Gupta (14:43):
Um, also, you know, there's, there's a lot of things you can, can look at from, uh, what we call space to ground products and space to space products, um, space, the ground products, or things that you build in space. And we can use here on the ground. Uh, and like I said, these are things that, you know, you can move, uh, things that are maybe are high polluting industries and, and bring them back to the ground. So those are, there's a lot of industries that, that, that really are around that. Um, and, and you can think of things like drug manufacturing, uh, is a big one where you can, you can create drugs in space that you can't create on the ground because of the form of microgravity, um, cancer, uh, cancer research is, is a big part of that. You know, one thing we know is you can't grow a tumor, um, on the ground in 3d, you can only grow it into D whereas in space, you can actually grow it in 3d and, and really unlock what, you know, how really you might attack that or cure that, um, type of disease.

Neeraj Gupta (15:37):
So there's a lot of real benefits to what we can do here on the ground. And then there's the space, the space segment, which is, you know, instead of building everything on the ground and land launching and, and putting in space, well, well, how about building in space? Um, you know, we don't, we don't build a building and, you know, overseas and then put it on a barge and ship it to its final destination and install it, right? We, you, you take the raw materials and you build it in place. Uh, so, so we're looking at those types of industries as well.

James Kotecki (16:07):
So you're talking about a space station and a transportation method for getting there. That seems to be more modern, more advanced, lower cost than the traditional government alternatives. What role do you see for the private sector versus the public sector in space going forward? I mean, if what you're talking about is true, then we should see an incredible boom of private sector activity in space, vastly eclipsing, he uses base term anything that the government does or has done. W what's the continuing role for government, if any, going forward, do you think? Yeah,

Neeraj Gupta (16:44):
I think the, uh, you know, government will still have a very strong role in space, uh, and, and really exploring further and further out. Right? So there, there, you know, you start in, in what we call low earth orbit, which is where the, the ISS is now. Um, and start going further out to the moon, to Mars, to asteroids start exploring those th those destinations in, in space compared to, uh, what we've now been in for over 30 years. So there's still definitely, there's still definitely a role for, uh, for governments, uh, in, in, in this whole architecture. And then also, you know, what we enable B uh, is those, those, uh, further out destinations like Mars, for instance, um, that's about, uh, somewhere between an 800 and 1100 day mission to get there. Well, the first time you go do that, you're not going to go do it on your way to Mars, right? You're going to go practice that and develop it in lower earth orbit. So you're, you're near home and you can come back and we can do that at our, at our commercial, um, orbital reef as well. So we can really enable governments to go further and, and really, you know, stretch the boundaries and, and, and areas we want to explore.

James Kotecki (17:53):
Do you see a future where the average CES attendee is going to be able to, to allow to the desert hop on one of your vehicles and take a quick trip to space as an exhibit?

Neeraj Gupta (18:02):
Oh, I, I I'd love it. In fact, I'd love to do a CES in space

James Kotecki (18:06):
That I'm into it. I'll be there with you. What are you actually planning for CES 20, 22? Yeah.

Neeraj Gupta (18:11):
Yeah. So we're, we're planning, you know, this is our first time, uh, of being at CES. So it's a, you know, it's really exciting for us and see S is really, you know, a platform where we see, uh, all of this coming together. Like I said, a lot of the enabling technologies to allow us to do it. So we're really excited, planning, a lot of fun things. We're going to display our full-scale, uh, uh, dream chaser model, um, how, and, uh, CES. And we, we encourage everybody to come to see that, um, that's, like I said, our space plane that lands on a runway, uh, this is, you know, one of those technologies that is very different than what we've done in the past, where people splashing oceans, and we can take it right down where any, anywhere a 7 37 lands, uh, and take it right back to an airport. So, uh, we're going to have that, uh, on display. Uh, we're also going to have a display of our, um, life module there as well. So there'll be a smaller version. It's not the full three, three story, uh, version, at least not this time. Um, but, but hopefully soon, and then also some, uh, VR showing the full experience of what the orbital reef is, and you can fly through it, float through it. You can see kind of all the different modules and, and, and what's in there.

James Kotecki (19:24):
So CES is all about the private sector. So don't take this question the wrong way, but science fiction sometimes paints a picture of a overly commercialized space. That's almost kind of crass, right. And there's like McDonald's foot and around the moon or whatever it might be. So do you feel any kind of responsibility to your users, to your customers, to your tourists to kind of preserve that sense of awe in what you're building?

Neeraj Gupta (19:52):
Yeah. You know, we, we are really going to kind of preserve that, that sense, you know, there's the, there's the one side of making sure that we can enable commercial businesses to come up and, and, and really, you know, further the use of space, um, which we're, we, you know, we're, we're very much committed to, but at the same time, you know, we want to make sure that you get the experience of space, right? It's, it's the, it shouldn't look like a, a, um, a, uh, you know, modern city anywhere in the, in the, in the us, you should be, you know, in space and looking down at the earth and looking at the stars and, uh, and being able to, to, to really immerse yourself in those, those things. So, yeah, we, we definitely are cognizant of that and making sure that we can, um, we can really maintain that,

James Kotecki (20:35):
But this kind of luxury, uh, widely available space experience really has been the stuff of science fiction up until now. Other, other lessons, inspirations, or warnings that you take from science fiction as you're building this out in real life.

Neeraj Gupta (20:50):
Oh, that's a, that's a good question. Well, I, but probably not put enough automation where the space station can take over and, uh, and knock you out. Right. That's, that's a, that's exactly, uh, is, is, let's not, let's not do that. Um, no, you know, I honestly it's from the, from what is actually happened in space, on, on, on the ISS, on what we've seen in exploration, on getting people to move, that's really where we've drawn, um, uh, quite a bit from, you know, and, and, uh, uh, it it's, you know, we're taking the best of the best things we do here on the ground, um, from experience from safety, from all of those types of, uh, aspects and really taken us space. So that's really what we're, what we're drawing from.

James Kotecki (21:36):
So the end of the decade is when you foresee this kind of being operational fully operational, what are the milestone markers along the way to achieve that? As far as, uh, you know, both the space plane and the space station, what should we be looking for in the next few years?

Neeraj Gupta (21:52):
Yeah. So look for our space plane to be, uh, flying, uh, toward the end of next year. Uh, so that's the, that's the first piece, you know, we have, uh, seven missions going to the ISS to take cargo, um, using our dream chaser and then coming back and re landing on a runway. So, uh, we're going to start that service at the end of next year. So you'll see that, uh, as one of the first pieces, um, and we're looking for, uh, doing some, some, uh, uh, demonstration testing and, and, uh, uh, ground full scale prototyping, the, the, those types of things, uh, with our life systems, uh, over the next couple of years as well. So, so w uh, you'll see a lot of that happening and, and, uh, uh, we plan on putting that out to, to have people be able to actually come and experience them. Hopefully we can bring it to a, to a CES or have people come and, and be able to see that in person

James Kotecki (22:45):
And the space plane, I believe is going to be autonomous. Right. Well, there'll be pilot.

Neeraj Gupta (22:51):
Uh, no, you're right. It's autonomous. Uh, they're, they're not going to be pilots in there. So it's a fully autonomous system. Uh, so once it gets to the international space station, it in Bert's to, to that system, which means basically uses a robotic arm, um, and then attaches to the system, and then on its way home, it's all autonomous. We use, um, propulsion systems and, and onboard navigation to, uh, to bring it right back down to a runway.

James Kotecki (23:17):
But what you're doing is, uh, so cool. And I am just like so excited to try and take a trip in this, in the future. Um, are there other people in this sector, this space who are making a go of it as well? Like, I imagine that you may not be the only company doing this, so I don't need you to give, uh, you know, name your competitors necessarily, but how do you see yourselves as different than other people who are presumably also racing to build the future of space? Yeah,

Neeraj ​Gupta (23:45):
It's a good question. There, there are, uh, there are definitely other people that are, that are interested in this, and I'll tell you, what's very unique about us is, uh, there are a few things. One is, um, you know, we're partnered with, uh, blue origin, uh, and, and, uh, we, we have a shared vision of, uh, what we see as being space and, and our vision is, is to have, you know, thousands or millions of people living and working in space in, in, in the near future. And, and really, that's kind of our guiding principle. So, you know, when you take that and couple it with the technologies that we own, uh, and frankly, we're one of the only companies that owns the technologies to really enable it. So our life, uh, module a system that we've been developing that with NASA, uh, we actually originally developed it for deep space missions for going to the moon going, going to, to, uh, to Mars. Um, and, and we've been developing that for over five years now with, uh, with NASA. Um, and that's, you know, pretty unique. Other, other companies are, are trying to purchase those capabilities where we actually own and develop those, um, same thing with our space plane. Uh it's you know, the, in, in my opinion, it's, it's definitely the preferred way I would want to go, uh, to, in, to, and back from space. I, you know, I would much rather run a land on a runway than, than, uh, land in the ocean or, or

James Kotecki (25:05):
The golf on a runway too, with that. Or is it kind of the same vertical orientation that we're doing from a space shuttle?

Neeraj Gupta (25:10):
Yeah, it's, it's the, the louder, you, you still are kind of like a space shuttle. We, we, uh, go on top of a, of a heavy lift launch vehicle. Um, and then, and then come back to a runway.

James Kotecki (25:21):
I'm going to come back to the tagline of the company, the mission of the company, I suppose, which is on your website, I'm going to quote it, enabling humanity to begin new civilizations beyond earth. That's reflected in what you've been saying today in terms of people. And I'm not just working in space, but living there is what you're talking about with, uh, this technology going to get us to the place where people are actually living in space. I mean, are you talking about babies being born in space, families living their entire lives in spaces that really the longterm vision?

Neeraj Gupta (25:54):
Yeah. You know, we, we see that as, as being a, uh, you know, a very viable option. Um, you know, our, our vision is to make sure people are there and enable the ability to get there and get back to the ground. Uh, but yeah, absolutely. You know, seeing people, uh, living in, in space, you know, babies, like you said, babies being potentially born in space, uh, and, and, uh, you know, continuing to develop that, um, is absolutely something that, that we're, we're interested in. I won't say it's, you know, the, the founding principle of, of, of what we're doing, but it would be a, you know, a great day to see, uh, you know, that, that much interest in civilization moving that way.

James Kotecki (26:33):
And I imagine going to other planets as well as potentially on your roadmap.

Neeraj Gupta (26:37):
Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, we developed our, our life technology, like I said, for deep space applications originally, so that you, you know, you could be, uh, around, uh, around the moon or going to Mars also have developed it to be used on the lunar surface. So when you start talk about civilizations and, and building, building those out, we see the moon is, is absolutely an area that, you know, is, is right for that as well.

James Kotecki (27:03):
So if we've got the space plan on the space station, by the end of this decade, are we going to be permanently based on the moon by the end of the 2030s?

Neeraj Gupta (27:12):
Uh, you know, I think the end of the 2030s is possible. Uh, you know, when you're looking at what, what, uh, NASA is doing with the human landing systems and, and getting people there, uh, you know, back to the moon and toward the end of this decade as well, I am looking at doing sustainable, uh, landings, meaning multiple, uh, um, uh, you know, drop-downs to the lunar surface and back and forth. I absolutely think it's possible

James Kotecki (27:38):
Has working at this company made you want to live in space more or less than when you started.

Neeraj Gupta (27:47):
Um, that's it, uh, I would, I would have to say more definitely. You know, when I started here, you know, these, these things, like you said, felt very far out there, um, they were, you know, they were, they were things that you, you kind of thought of. And, and we've, we've, you know, we have a lot of astronauts, uh, in, in our company that have experienced those things. And you think about it from that perspective, but no seeing what we're building and, and seeing it's, you know, we're, we're right, right there, you know, to where the end of this decade, uh, it, it definitely makes me want to do it.

James Kotecki (28:20):
And speaking of that perspective, I mean, if you could get thousands or millions of people getting that quintessential earth from space view astronauts, come back and say that it changes them, you know, on a deep and sometimes very spiritual level to understand the earth from that perspective. So what you're doing could have a much harder to measure, but also a very real impact on that too.

Neeraj Gupta (28:38):
Yeah, absolutely. In fact, I'll tell you one of our, our astronauts, uh, Janet Cavani, um, she mentioned that all the time that it's very transformational. It was for her when she went to space and, and, you know, that's, that's one of the things that drives her and, and she always, you know, relays back to us every day is, you know, making sure that people really feel that because it's something you can't explain. It's just something you have to explain.

James Kotecki (29:02):
Well, I, for one, and I'm sure many of our listeners cannot wait to experience it for ourselves. Thank you so much for joining us today. Neeraj.

Neeraj Gupta (29:09):
Great. Thanks, James. Appreciate it.

James Kotecki (29:11):
And we will see you at CES 2022, and we hope to see you there as well. Thanks so much for listening to this show. Remember, there's always more tech to talk about. So subscribe to this podcast. So you don't miss a moment and get more CES at CES.tech that's C E S dot T E C H. Our show is produced by Tina Anthony and Kiersten Hizack, recorded by Andrew Linn, and edited by third spoon. Special thanks to CTA's John Lindsay for the studio help. I'm James Kotecki.

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