Tyler Suiters
This edition of CES Tech Talk is brought to you by Deloitte.
Hanish Patel
Hey Tech Talk listeners it's Hanish Patel from Deloitte's User Friendly, the podcast where my guests and I explore the latest trends in tech, media and telecom and turn them into something a little more user friendly. We just launched season four and have some exciting topics coming up. From connectivity trends to sports, through to digital reality. If you enjoy CES Tech Talks, I highly recommend checking us out wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Until then, happy listening.
Tyler Suiters
Hey everybody. I'm Tyler Suiters, Consumer Technology Association. We are the owners and producers of CES, the world's largest, the world's most influential tech event underway right now. And we are joining you from the show floor at CES 2020 here in Las Vegas. It's a bit of a tradition for us when the show is underway that we host media roundtables, talking to the reporters, the editors, the journalists who are covering CES and some of whom have covered CES in decades past, not just years past. Today's topic that we're tackling with these media members, digital health, remote monitoring, diagnostic solutions, wearables. CES is the only venue where this entire digital health ecosystem comes together in one place. Today you will hear from the voices of the media itself, what is taking place today in digital health, the potential it holds and what they see is on the way tomorrow as shown on the show floor at CES 2020. All of that is on this edition of CES Tech Talk.
Tyler Suiters
Good afternoon everyone. Welcome to CES 2020 we're so glad you're here in Las Vegas for the world's largest, the world's most influential tech event. I'm Tyler Suiters with the Consumer Technology Association. We're the owner and producer of CES and we're thrilled to have you here and I'm especially happy to have our esteemed panelists here talking today about digital health at CES 2020 as part of the CES Tech Talk podcast. Introducing our panelists now, starting on my immediate left, Amy Roberts is managing editor with reviewed.com. Amy welcome.
Amy Roberts
Thank you very much.
Tyler Suiters
Dana Wollman is a veteran of our podcast and these round tables with the media here at CES 2020. She is editor at Engadget Dana, it's great to have you back.
Dana Wollman
Thanks for having me back.
Tyler Suiters
And not only a first-time guest, Neal Batra is a partner with Deloitte Consulting. He is also a first time attendee at CES and through a few days you seem still pretty enthusiastic.
Neal Batra
Yeah, don't rookie haze me please. But I'm thrilled to be here. Great to be part of this.
Tyler Suiters
Great. Glad to have you all here. Digital health is one the central themes of CES 2020 both on certainly the micro level, the devices, the in home technologies we see, but also on the macro, the discussions, the policies, the enabling of digital health. A bit of an overview if we could. And Amy, let's start with your perspective on what you're seeing in terms of a general trend for digital health and that can go in any direction you choose.
Amy Roberts
Well, so at Reviewed we focus more on the fitness tracking aspect rather than the medical end. And one of the things that I'm noticing is that, the typical trend has been for years now putting all of these sensors on the wrist and I'm noticing now that companies are trying to figure out ways to make that tech more either central to the body or getting information when you're running from your feet. Which central core measurements are going to be more accurate for say heart rate or breathing, which are aspects that you want to look at for sleep or potentially for activity tracking. And then obviously your feet are what's hitting the ground when you're running literally. That is also, it's interesting to kind of see a better innovation in terms of how the tech can be integrated within the, on the body in ways that makes it more accurate.
Amy Roberts
One of the problems with wrist tracking is that you're only getting information from a peripheral part of the body. It's something and it does provide you with something to use in terms of trying to modify your fitness behaviors.
Tyler Suiters
It's a metric.
Amy Roberts
But it's not as good potentially as some of these additional technologies that are coming out might be.
Tyler Suiters
Fair. Dana, how about you? What's your perspective?
Dana Wollman
We've been paying a lot of attention to how discreet these designs are, which is important particularly not just for people who want to monitor their health, but maybe people who have a disability in particular and are worried about a stigma of whatever it is that happens to be ailing them. We've been paying a lot of attention to how subtle and sometimes unseen these designs are. In particular, we're seeing a lot of hearing aids that could double or pass for wireless earbuds. I'm not going to spoil it too much, but we have our list coming out today of the nominees for the official best of CES awards and we have more than one hearing aid in the accessibility category and I think it is the discreetness of the design that is one of the factors that really just took us in each time.
Tyler Suiters
Discreetness and maybe accessibility as well in that for all levels of functionality for lack of a better term, there's something for you. In that if you have profound hearing loss, there is a device and if you're suffering slight hearing loss, there's an appropriate level for you too, is the way I would phrase it. But more on that in a moment. Neal, okay first-time perspective. And you come it from a little different angle and that you're the global future of health leads. I'd imagine you're taking a more macro look at everything here.
Neal Batra
Yes, and it, the luxury of being a global future of health lead is I'm never wrong. Like, oh no, it's going to happen. It's just not now. And so it's a great job. And so what's interesting for me is health is everywhere. And I think that's a profound difference from five years ago, 10 years ago, certainly 20 years ago when consumer electronics consumables drew a line at health. Health was the foray of skilled practitioners and providers. And you go to a facility or a center and get expertise done there and you show up as an uninformed individual and say, "I don't feel good." Well, that's not the way it is anymore. I show up at the doc and I'm like, "No, no, these are my six symptoms. I'm pretty sure it's this and I want that." And so what you're seeing at the show in my view is the elevation of consumerism around health and the notion that you have empowered, agitated consumers who are fired up about their own health and are now at a position where they're going to self-seek and self-navigate to assemble the right solutions.
Neal Batra
And so in my view, if this is a nine inning game, we're inning one of this journey, and I think what you're seeing are in classic transformation terms, clunky spot solutions that may be effective for a narrow thing that over time will link to other clunky spot solutions that do narrow things. And over time you create systemic change and systemic devices, systemic options for consumers that all of a sudden become powerfully effective.
Tyler Suiters
I see you're both nodding along. Dana and Amy, one of you, please pick up on what Neal was saying.
Dana Wollman
Well, so and we, even last night when we were talking about the possible nominees for the best of CES awards, we often asked ourselves in the health category, how are consumers going to find out about this? Is it that a doctor is going to prescribe a device like this? Or they're going to somehow hear about it the way they would any other kind of consumer good and decide this is for me.
Tyler Suiters
Yeah, yeah. Interesting.
Neal Batra
And where did you land? Did you land?
Tyler Suiters
Yeah, we're waiting for the answer.
Dana Wollman
To your point, I think we figured it was more likely that people would somehow hear about the device, think, have hope that it could possibly treat whatever was ailing them or allay whatever concerns they were having about their body, that it was more likely that would happen than a doctor would prescribe it.
Neal Batra
When I'm talking to clients of mine, who are the incumbent healthcare companies, so the big classic players, I have this conversation all the time and my point to them is who taught your kids how to use Snapchat? You didn't teach them, you don't even know what that is, but how did they learn? They learned because it offered utility in a way that created value and they're willing to exchange privacy and these other inconveniences for the value. That's how every product works. And so if you've got a consumer product that's adding value, folks are going to navigate to it in part because they're seeking solutions to problems that otherwise were unaddressed.
Tyler Suiters
Ah, interesting. Amy.
Amy Roberts
One of the things that I'm very focused on in the work that I'm doing at Reviewed is taking these claims or hey, this cool thing could help you learn how to sleep better and kind of wanting to take some skepticism on that and pull back a little and say, "Well cool, but is it really to replace a doctor?" Or should I take this information to my doctor?" And I think that it's great that we're enabling the consumer to have these devices that can track all these different things. I just, I'm always a little concerned that you're reading this marketing claim and you're like, this is going to be the cure all and I don't now need to speak to a doctor about it.
Amy Roberts
And so I actually, one of the things that I've noticed in a few companies is that they are actually trying to bridge that gap in a better way where they're helping to, there's a device that you can wear that will track your sleep and then you can get that information and they've contracted with sleep doctors that will then help you figure out really in real life what you need to be doing. But these are medically trained professionals. It's not just a device that's now telling you, oh you didn't sleep all last night and now suddenly you feel unrested because the device is kind of psychologically messed with you. You know what I mean?
Tyler Suiters
Drink more water.
Neal Batra
And I love that. I'm sorry.
Tyler Suiters
Dana please.
Dana Wollman
I think a lot about this, the challenges of being a reporter covering these products. I think you need to approach it with a certain level of curiosity. But also some skepticism in that we aren't doctors and we aren't medical professionals. And how do you investigate and interrogate the claims that these companies are making? And sort of examine it yourself.
Tyler Suiters
It brings up, if I may Amy, for both of you, are you learning more? Are you becoming better informed consumers by what you're reporting and how and the stories you're writing and the coverage you're providing?
Amy Roberts
I hope so. I hope that, as a journalist, that's the job of a good journalist is to take that information, synthesize it and send it back to the reader in a way that will help them understand better what they're getting into and what they're doing. I have a background as a personal trainer and that does help me a lot when I hear fitness claims because I'm certainly not the foremost expert on fitness, but I know when I'm hearing marketing versus when I'm hearing something that's based on the current exercise science and that's, I don't, I'm not meaning to say that I think companies are trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes, but there's sort of the disconnect of what the consumer wants to hear.
Amy Roberts
Which is this thing is going to make me healthier. They want to hear that so badly and there are so many myths that just continue to get propagated because that's the message that the consumer expects to hear. And often it's complicated so it's harder to explain in a way from the standpoint of the people that are producing the products, how this product really works and they just sort of synthesize it down into something that maybe is misleading in a not intentionally.
Tyler Suiters
Right, right. Neal, what about your perspective on that then? I'd assume that as you're looking forward, focusing on that future aspect of your scope of work, that there is this much tighter communication channel or pathway between patient and caregiver moving forward enabled by technology.
Neal Batra
Yeah. I'm in the middle I think here, a little bit in the sense that I think the provider system and the healthcare system has been designed at the convenience of the provider. You have to fit on their schedule, you have to go to them. It's around them creating time and energy for you. The follow-up is on your onus not theirs. The whole system is organized for their convenience not the consumer's. And so as we're flipping the script here and as consumerism and the consumer push and the agitation from the consumer is driving consumption to nontraditional paths, disruptive offerings, digital and telemedicine offerings, Ayurvedic and traditional Chinese medicine increasingly penetrating, non-pharmacological, noninvasive solutions increasingly gaining traction, all those things. I'm kind of like, we should trust the consumer. Health is the last business that honors consumer unmet needs and wants. And what you often hear from companies is well, they don't understand, they don't get it.
Neal Batra
And so I take the point that these are not, they may not be precise and we're worried about the spin and I think those are very fair. Those are very fair. And there is some of that. But I also think there's an element here where if you look at cosmetics, cosmetics may be very successful. They don't do anything technical at all because they make you feel good. There are performance attributes that are non-physical or nonclinical and non-technical in nature even when it comes to health, that I think are genuine and matter and frankly consumers will pay for it. You're looking at me skeptically Dana so jump in here. Take me out.
Dana Wollman
Oh I'm just, I'm considering that point.
Tyler Suiters
Ponder, ponder away please.
Neal Batra
Very kind.
Tyler Suiters
On a more micro level because Dana and Amy, I know you take deep dives into products themselves and what they do and how effective they may be and what they could develop into. What have you seen specifically so far that has either of you a bit excited about the potential within a device or specific application here at CES?
Dana Wollman
I was taken with the Withings Scan Watch, which has not one but two optical sensors on the back and one it does the usual, I want to say usual ECG test, which has become more or less standard in smartwatches, but then the other optical sensor claims to detect signs of sleep apnea, which is not a condition I have heard talked about much at least at this show or really ever, in the tech industry. It's always interesting to hear medical conditions alluded to that you don't think are being talked about that much.
Tyler Suiters
Yeah, and I've seen other, at least one other device and exhibitor talking about that based on measurement of oxygen levels. Correct? Is that the same thing?
Dana Wollman
Blood oxygen levels.
Tyler Suiters
Exactly. Yes. Yes.
Amy Roberts
Yeah, I will say that some of the sleep tech in general has been interesting and it's sort of, it runs the gamut of detection and then also preventative like things that could help you sleep, to improve your circadian rhythm. I think that company I mentioned that is doing the guidance where you can then buy into a program where they will help you. I think the idea of bridging the connection between the consumer and the provider is huge and especially in the way that our healthcare system is so much about treating conditions rather than preventing them. I think a lot of the things that tech can do to help facilitate that. If someone does have signs of sleep apnea that they didn't even realize was a problem, maybe they can go get the help they need to be able to rectify that before it becomes a worse problem. Or they'll learn better hygiene so that their sleep doesn't suffer over the long term. I think that that's a pretty big.
Dana Wollman
I think to your point too, I appreciate the balance between useful information and not venturing into fear mongering in a product like that. It's like here is some information that might be of use to you and here's what you can do with it in consultation with a doctor. It involves less driving up a fear to get someone to buy the product and invest in the product.
Amy Roberts
Or playing on people's insecurities. I think that's another whenever I even just see the UI experiences in some of these products where they say, a Fitbit or someone on the Apple suggest tips, if it notices trends, but in a very friendly, non-confrontational hey, we noticed this. Maybe this is something you might want to consider changing or trying something differently. And I think that you're right because it can be very scary if suddenly you get this information that's telling you, you're not breathing when you sleep.
Tyler Suiters
Right, right. I have the feeling that my wearable device, it could tell me in 10 minutes to get up and start walking around. I've been sitting down too long. Neal, what about you? Have you had a chance to see some of the specific technologies on display?
Neal Batra
Yeah, so for me, if we're in the first inning of this transformation, the theme of this inning for me is personalized data. And so to me the theme in all of these devices is getting richer and more deeply understanding what's going on within me. I think what we miss from that though is then putting in context of what does that mean? And the example I often give is if I line up three individuals who look exactly the same, same demographic, same gender, same socioeconomics, all of it and they smoke a pack a day for 30 years, all three aren't getting lung cancer, maybe only one is. And maybe one's got lung issues and the third one looks healthy as a horse. The element is one thing, how it interacts with our complex biology is another. And you need the combination of the two to actually get personalized care at an N of one level that is now actionable for me.
Neal Batra
To me inning one right now in all these devices is, sensors everywhere pumping out data. What does it mean? I don't know. My REM sleep isn't great. What does that mean? I think we're going to have this moment, where we're going to have a lot of data and we're not going to know how to action it or how to tailor it or how to interpret it for me. And to me the innovations that are going to be stepped forward will be the interpretation as we go that allows me to be tailor it for myself.
Amy Roberts
Well and I'm nodding and smiling because at Reviewed that's basically what we do. We test stuff and we then tell you, "Hey, this thing can do this and this is what our real life experience was like with this thing." And then we also of course talk to experts and say, "Hey, what does this tell us now? Where do we go from here?" My writer who's here with me at the show is going to be writing a first person piece on the sleep tech that she personally is looking forward to trying this year because that might help her with some of the sleep issues that she personally has. And I think that bringing it back to that, we can talk about it, from up high as experts in the field, but ultimately it needs to be explained in a way that people can actually use it and how it will help them.
Tyler Suiters
And to be clear, she's not testing that this week. This is not a fair test.
Amy Roberts
Definitely not.
Tyler Suiters
This is not a controlled group.
Amy Roberts
We have a whole schedule. She'll be sleeping with different devices for months.
Neal Batra
But here's the rub. The rub for me though is if it works for her, does it actually mean it works for everybody? And how do you draw that line to say, "Here are the folks that it will work on." Most likely, somewhat and not at all. It's that second piece that then makes it really consumerable and actionable.
Amy Roberts
Well and we could try to test it with hundreds of people.
Neal Batra
It's a start.
Amy Roberts
And I guess, I guess my thought also on that is that we at least try to answer questions.
Neal Batra
Without a doubt.
Amy Roberts
Like, oh, it worked in this case for this person, but it might not work if you're in a couple and you're sharing a bed. Whatever.
Tyler Suiters
That's why we're discerning consumers of a number of reviews. We have many, many, many options. Dana, please.
Dana Wollman
I think the industry can learn a lot of lessons from the way niche devices are already designed. For instance, something like a runner's watch, I'm a marathoner. This will tell me my VO2 max, which might seem like an obscure metric, but for someone who really is invested in that sport, it's not an obscure metric and it's one that we know how to make sense of. I think the bigger challenge in a way to both of your points is what are you, how do you approach it when you're designing something for a more mainstream audience? It might be easier to design a niche product because you can make more assumptions about the end user and what they care about. I think for something like a toothbrush, it's like, well, how much do they need to know about the buildup of plaque in their mouth other than to know that it's gone?
Tyler Suiters
Yeah, yeah. And it's bad. Let's shift a little bit toward the wellness direction we were moving, and Amy, I'm going to save you for last as a former trainer because you're going to be deep in the weeds I know on this. What about fitness tech? Let's start with you Dana, and as a runner, a passionate runner as we've known from past podcasts, is there something specific that you see or maybe a need for a hole that needs to be filled?
Dana Wollman
One thing we've been talking about among our team, and I don't really have quite a great explanation for why this is happening, but we're seeing an emergence of smart rowing machines, which I also, I rowed in a previous life and even to me it seems like kind of an obscure inaccessible sport. It's been, I would say pleasantly surprising but surprising to see so many different machines at this show that attempt to make that sport trendy and glamorous and more accessible. And maybe that's not something I was expecting specifically coming into the show this week.
Tyler Suiters
Interesting point. Yeah. So Neal, you've made a couple of baseball references, I'm not going to hold you to that sport as a wellness application, but please go right ahead.
Neal Batra
I think the rowing machine push is a Peloton, it's a Peloton driven dynamic where that's kind of hit the stride of sort of breaking through marketing campaign recently, notwithstanding. And that may be what they're trying to do. I don't know. On the fitness side of things, I think what's interesting is again, consistent with my first inning individualized data dynamic, I think that's what's coming to fitness as well. You're getting a lot more information, a lot more data. You're able to link it, move it, share it, translate it, interoperability, link it to other data sets as well, and maybe make a holistic view of what's going on. I think that's all good. I think it's niche in nature, but I think oftentimes a lot of innovations occur when you get a niche community and you tailor specifically to them because they're willing to spend money on some really nascent frontier pushing tech because they're up for the experimentation because it matters to them.
Dana Wollman
I'm just projecting and wondering who likes rowing? I row and I don't like rowing.
Neal Batra
I hate rowing too but you know it's good for you.
Tyler Suiters
It's a little bit about who likes suffering in the name of physical fitness. For your perspective Amy, both as a trainer but also as a consumer, what has you excited?
Amy Roberts
I love that you brought up the rowing machines because I noticed that trend as well. And I from a trainer perspective, love it because rowing functionally is kind of opposite muscles that we use in daily life. When you're sitting and you're hunched forward and you're not using your lower body, the rower completely undoes a lot of the bad posture damage. But to the point of the niche thing, I also love seeing that because my attitude as a trainer when trying to incur, let me back up actually. Not even me personally, but just in general, the issue we have in this society is encouraging people to move more. And while I could tell you as a trainer you should do this, US guidelines, three days a week of cardio, two days a week of resistance training.
Amy Roberts
If you do not like that and you are not motivated to get to the gym or do any sort of the more traditional modes, you're not going to and that isn't going to do you any good. I love it that maybe there is someone out there that's so excited about rowing and now they've got four new machine options that they could get. But that's the thing that gets them going. And ultimately if you're not inspired, you're not going to do that fitness. However we get there, whether it's a tech thing that you get excited when you strap it on your wrist because it means you're about to go out for your run and now it's got this technology where it can map and tell you to take a left at the next turn. Fantastic, that tech has now enhanced something that you already liked and makes it even better.
Neal Batra
And you're seeing, so I've got one example where there's a major health plan that actually to get their members moving, committed to letting them to earn out certain wearables over time if they met certain criteria. You'll get this Apple Watch after six months, but I need 10,000 steps from you every day. And I also need you to meet a couple of spot challenges. And some of their spot challenges would be 3,000 steps in an hour and the earn out to meet those challenges was 80% plus.
Tyler Suiters
Wow. And it was incentive based, rewards based.
Neal Batra
Incentive based, reward was actually keeping the device. You earned it. It's yours now. And so what's interesting is fitness as a niche, you can go high end and get returns, but actually to get people to move you may need to link to other elements or aspects. The cool factor, the fact that it's got utility as a watch itself, the gamification aspect, the community aspect, I think behavior change and this notion of nudging needs to come into play here and these things need to start connecting to make it all kind of happen.
Tyler Suiters
Amy.
Amy Roberts
Yeah, exactly. Ultimately buying a $3,000 machine is not going to suddenly make you into the best rower. But if you already know you kind of like that thing and now it's made it that much more exciting to do it, you have it in your living room, you have motivational coaches, you have a beautiful screen and you can pretend you're rowing on the Seine or whatever. Then awesome. The one thing that always makes me worried when these big expensive things come out is that people will spend money on it, and it will just collect dust. Ultimately you still have to be honest with yourself, is this thing really going to motivate you? And then yeah, you get major returns for these tiny, these nudges that you are getting from that device.
Tyler Suiters
One final topic before we roll and it's a big one, but it's just a top of mind comment. The idea of value based healthcare and how tech can advance that. In other words, the outcomes are much more success story driven, rather than the models we have now. How does healthcare through technology deliver better outcomes at lower prices? Neal?
Neal Batra
Yeah. And I'll just quick start, which is as you collect data around the individual, it lets me keep score in a more meaningful way. And so to me, value based care are companies going at risk for their product and them getting paid only when your metrics move. On the $3,000 rowing machine, maybe it's only 200 bucks to start and as your weight comes down, as your oxygen levels go up, as your aerobic fitness goes up, you pay them more or something. They earn out as you perform and as a product performs. That to me is value based care in a simple context. I'm being a little bit dramatic, but that's what it should be. They should be at risk for their product. Dana keeps looking at me like I'm crazy.
Amy Roberts
I also think positive motivation is so important. I've worked at a number of companies where there have been different ways that the healthcare has been structured and the ones that I see that seem to be the most effective are the ones that are the positive things. Like, hey, we're having a step challenge. You can get a Fitbit for half price and then everyone get into teams and now for the next week we're all going to try to see who can get the most steps. People get motivated. Not everyone gets motivated by that, but having a positive thing, earning points to be able to then buy and device I think is definitely a much better way to go about it than the opposite way, which I think is sort of maybe the more traditional way of if you smoke we're going to make you pay more for your health insurance.
Amy Roberts
Well why don't you give me an incentive-based thing so that if I do the cessation program and I stop smoking, I then get a cut or something. Something that's more positive and I think that's where tech can come in where you can measure that for the positive.
Neal Batra
Agreed.
Tyler Suiters
It's hard to stop right now with so much more to talk about what we will and Dana, I will say that you've left me thinking about moving from comparing step counts of one another to comparing VO2 maxes at some point. And finding deeper value in the data we collect. Thank you all. Amy Roberts with reviewed.com, Dana Wollman with Engadget, Neal Batra with Deloitte, a real pleasure and have a great rest of CES 2020.
Neal Batra
You too, thank you.
Dana Wollman
Thank you. You too.
Amy Roberts
Thanks so much.
Tyler Suiters
All right, a reminder for everyone here, please subscribe to the CES Tech Talk podcast. You won't miss a single episode and you can catch up on everything that happened here at CES 2020 and we'll see you next time on Tech Talk.
Tyler Suiters
All right, next time on CES Tech Talk, our third and final media round table from CES 2020. We're talking to journalists here about vehicle technology. Now you know that CES hosts the world's leading auto manufacturers. We also have live self-driving demos. There are concept cars on display, many of which are getting some serious buzz already. And also the emerging trends in the world of vehicle technology. A deep dive into vehicle tech at CES 2020 on our next edition of CES Tech Talk.
Tyler Suiters
Okay, a reminder to subscribe to this podcast. That way you won't miss any of our episodes and you can catch up on some of the topics we've already discussed leading up to CES 2020. And you can still download the CES 2020 app. That way you can track the events, the exhibitors, all the panels taking place here in Las Vegas this week at the big show. Now, none of this is even remotely possible without the true stars of our podcast, our executive producer, Tina Anthony, and our senior studio engineer, John Lindsey, you all are the best in the business. I'm Tyler Suiters. Let's talk tech again soon.
Tyler Suiters
This edition of CES Tech Talk has been brought to you by Deloitte.
Hanish Patel
Hey tech talk listeners, is Hanish Patel from Deloitte's User Friendly, the podcast where my guests and I explore the latest trends in tech, media and telecom and turn them into something a little more user friendly. We just launched season four and I have some exciting topics coming up from connectivity trends to sports, through to digital reality. If you enjoy CES Tech Talks, I highly recommend checking us out wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Until then, happy listening.