Tyler Suiters 0:11
Hey everybody, Tyler Suiters with the consumer Technology Association. We are the owners and the producers of CES, the most influential tech event on the planet. We are here to help you get CES ready the show is January 8th to the 11th 2019 in Las Vegas. And there is a section of CES that brings together leading CMOs and content creators, the Hollywood sector, the media sector, they all congregate at C Space. And this is where you get the conversations around, uncovering disruptive trends that are changing the future of brands of marketing, and of entertainment. Big name companies from Google to Hulu, New Lion to Snap, TiVo, Univision, this is where it all comes together, as well as leading CMOs and chief brand officers from major companies global brands like P&G, and Unilever. Well, today we are talking about a section that is critical to C Space and this world that is the streaming content sector. Today, we're talking to a pioneer in the streaming music sector that is Pandora, in part about its brand-new music Genome Project. Very cool. And also a conversation with a new disruptor. In streaming video, a company called Pluto TV, you're really gonna want to hear about this, including a new campaign that Pluto has underway involving pop up channels. That's all on this edition of CES Tech Talk. Jeff Schultz is the Chief Business Officer with Pluto TV. And he also has a pretty deep back background in more traditional media. But we'll hold that for a few questions into the future. Jeff, really glad you could join us today.
Jeff Shultz 2:07
Thanks for having me.
Tyler Suiters 2:08
So let's talk about Pluto TV. I'm tempted to say it's synonymous with streaming video. But I know it's a much more deeper explanation than that, correct?
Jeff Shultz 2:18
It certainly it certainly is a streaming video service. But you're also right that it goes deeper than that. So Pluto TV is a is a free streaming television service. It's a platform that offers over 100 channels, linear channels, they're TV channels just available over the top, along with thousands of video on demand titles as well. It's distributed everywhere, because the digital product. So it's available on the web, it's available on mobile, increasingly on connected TV. And it's full of content that you might be surprised to see their partners like CBS or NBC or Sony and Warner Brothers and Fox, reflective of, you know, not just excellent execution by Pluto as a growing business but also by changes in the industry where, where big partners are increasingly, you know, seeking new audience and new revenue on connected TV, which is which I think is probably relevant to your audience of listeners, Fire TV and Roku and, and also native connected TV platforms like Samsung and video, we can explosive growth on those platforms. And so one of the ways to think of Pluto is we're a virtual MVPD, just like Sling or YouTube TV or DirecTV now, but we're free. Another way to think of us is cable, but without the bill.
Tyler Suiters 3:45
That's a great catch line. I don't know how big your PR team came up with that, but very strong. So we're going to get into your more traditional media background a lot sooner than I expected. When you talk about these partnerships, Jeff. You led businesses element at CBS Radio similar position in biz dev for NBC, internet division. So you know, the traditional players from the inside out? Are you seeing the relationships between them and innovative, disruptive companies like Pluto becoming less antagonistic and much more synergistic? No, I'm using big words, but you're not fighting as often right? There's a lot more opportunity together since it's an astute question. And there's no question. In the end, there is no question that that's that that's the case, I've had the good fortune of having sort of one foot in traditional media and one foot in new media ever since I also had a good fortune of leaving the law about 20 years ago. And so I've had a front row seat to, to all these changes. And what I'll say is, even just several years ago, the attitude or approach of these major media companies towards something like Pluto would not be what it is today, there, there, there are two things happening at the same time, you can call them push pull. So pull is, this is a real opportunity, Pluto is massive and growing. But and so that's offers in a real opportunity for major media companies to reach audience, they're not reaching through the traditional channels, and then generate genuinely incremental revenue from those from that audience. But the push part is that the business is changing in ways that are more clear than ever, you know, I think it was just earlier this week or last when, when the you know, million subscriber drop, was announced across all MVPDs. So like this cord cutting trend, which is a supportive trend for us, is accelerating, and it's causing major media companies to take seriously other approaches for monetization and distribution. So at the Nexus, this is a point that you referenced in just a moment ago, Jeff, and that is connected devices, and you were pointing specifically to smart TVs, 4k, UHD, UHD experience, connected devices are critical for all of this. And as we get more and more connected devices in our homes, or, you know, on the go. I mean, that is what's driving all of this, right? I mean, that's what drives consumer behavior, consumer enthusiasm and content creation, right? Is the availability of this anytime, anywhere through connectivity.
Jeff Shultz 6:35
That's right, that's right into sort of separate ways that the fact that people can consume content, particularly video content, everywhere, web, mobile, connected TV, this multi-platform, consumption opportunity is creating more consumption, not less, you know, while traditional platforms are suffering, overall consumption of media is still increasing constantly. And so for media companies that have a multi-platform approach, where they're about building content and brands, and then reaching consumers, wherever they are, that's a winner. But then, but then secondarily is the growth of connected TV in particular. So I mentioned cord cutting as a supportive trend. And it is it absolutely is, we are a we are in many ways a substitute to cable, because we're, we're a multi-channel offering, we are a vMVPD, but we come at no charge. But the more supportive trend is the fact that people are increasingly connected. They're connecting their televisions to the internet. And once they do they have a daily use case. That's what TV is you sit down and watch it, watch it almost daily, if not daily. And when you do you watch it like TV. And so what that means is that we're seeing massive growth by virtue of deals that we're doing with connected device manufacturers like Samsung, or Vizio, those are deals we announced over the summer. But those users that we're reaching, are using us more often than they do on other platforms. And when they do they watch for hours at a time just like TV.
Tyler Suiters 8:16
So you talking about trends, and Pluto has an interesting position on counterintuitive trends, not coining that phrase, but it's a good way to describe this. One is the notion of free TV, in the age of subscription. And you touched on this earlier. And Pluto's impression that there is something of a subscription fatigue going on right now. I assume, especially under the youngest demos of your viewers.
Jeff Shultz 8:43
Yeah, that's right there. There are actually two what I would call counterintuitive trends. That that underpin the founding of Pluto little over four years ago, one of them was free in the age of subscription and the other was linear in the age of video on demand. And maybe we can get to both but I'm the topic of subscription, actually just read last week that the average household has 2.8 subscriptions 2.8 video subscriptions. And if you if you count for the fact that Netflix is probably one and Amazon is probably the other.
Tyler Suiters 9:14
Yeah
Jeff Shultz 9:14
Then you have you have all of them, all of them competing for point eight, point that last point eight, right. And so and so several years ago, the common knowledge was that if you wanted to build a meaningful over the top business, you had to do so with a subscription model. And we went exactly the other way. And so you can think of Pluto TV as free and instant where there's no login, there's no setup the same way when you turn on your TV, it just works. That's also true for Pluto. And we don't ask people for money. And so we see that scale, remarkably, and at the same time, virtually none of these subscription standalone models seem to be working at the same time.
Tyler Suiters 10:00
So let's dive a bit deeper into that, Jeff, and that is the issue of AVOD, right, ad supported video on demand, and what it means to both Pluto TV, but also the evolving ecosystem, what you're learning both about your place in it, and what consumers want right now and what works best.
Jeff Shultz 10:19
That's right. Yeah, there absolutely is a broader trend. We have a broader trend of advertising supported media, we there are other companies who are approaching this in different ways, and benefiting from the fact that one audience is moving to these platforms and taking advantage of advertising supported content over the top. And then $2 are following them. Advertisers are increasingly interested in this audience which is both unreachable oftentimes through traditional media, and highly valuable in that in that this is, you know, increasingly connected TV have, you know, a, a brand safe, large screen premium advertising experience. And then we you know, we take great pride in the fact that we have a unique angle to a VOD, a VOD as a broad classification for advertising supported over the top, where we have packaged up content into 100 plus channels, the vast majority of those channels, some of them pass through, some of them are channels that we carry, like a like a Sky News, or a CBSN or a stadium sports. But the vast majority of those channels are channels that we make ourselves. So the same way I sort of would say we are next generation, Comcast, and that we're a virtual MVPD. We're also a next generation Discovery or Viacom in that we, we make branded channels to distribute through our own platform.
Tyler Suiters 11:48
Okay, so now we definitely need to touch on that that second counterintuitive trend, because you're talking about a cutting edge company disruptor, as I said, but you also come from the position that because consumers, your viewers might not want to decide what to watch, right? Not to not to seek and discover it's a bit of a of a lean back experience.
Jeff Shultz 12:12
Absolutely. And we think that is, we think that's self-evident today, and I and I suppose that our that our growth, that the traction that Pluto has in the market is proof of that, but three or four years ago, that was that was extremely provocative in the idea that in the age of what you want, when you want how you want, I mean, I'll say I said those words myself when I was at CBS,
Tyler Suiters 12:40
To say anything else different would get you excommunicated, right?
Jeff Shultz 12:45
That's right. That's right. So in the age of, of, of handing the reins to consumers of giving them control, is there a chance that people just want to be programmed to and, and then and then in solving that problem, the paradox of choice where when everything is available, what do you watch? Might we lean on decades old, decades old device of a branded TV channel, you know, the same way, MTV once assembled a set of content and did it in a in a way that created a brand that was meaningful to a large audience. Could we do that to go solve for discovery, and then create value, and it appears to be working?
Tyler Suiters 13:29
So let's talk about one of look, I think it's one of the coolest approaches. But to hit that sweet spot, Jeff, and that is the idea of a pop up channel. It does, to some extent, promote the lean back approach. But also, it's catchy. You know, you're grabbing attention in the time when it's in a deficit. And it seems like it's working quite well across a number of different content, sweets for you.
Jeff Shultz 13:55
It's, it's, it's incredible. This one, this one I can't say that I saw coming. So what you referring to is, is we will license a show, a series and will sometimes program that series on its own and its own channel as what we call a pop up. And the first time we did that, do you are you familiar with Wipeout, that game show? People getting people going through an obstacle course and getting obliterated leads to hilarity?
Tyler Suiters 14:31
Yeah, I'm saw it with the Japanese version. But absolutely, yeah,
Jeff Shultz 14:36
There you go. Exactly, exactly. And then made its way to the US version. So we, we license that that was essentially sitting on the on the shelf. With a with a content partner, we licensed that content, and program that into a 24-hour channel. So you could tune in and see people getting blown up on Wipeout anytime a day. And it was, and it was a promotion and a bit of an experiment. It was so successful, we left it up for a year and made a tiny fortune. And so based on that learning, we went back to the market and identified other pools of content and did the same thing. And so there's a new detective channel right now, which is extremely successful. This is sort of real-life CSI 24 hours a day. Gordon Ramsay's Hells Kitchen is also 24-hour channel on the service right now. And it's 24 hours a day of, you know, Gordon Ramsay yelling at, you know, poor, poor up-and-coming chefs.
Tyler Suiters 15:29
Yeah, can't get enough.
Jeff Shultz 15:30
Love it. And they can't get they can't get enough of it. And so what I'll say is, it's a really interesting, it's a really interesting model. But it's a model that we were able to experiment and settle on, because we own the platform and the channels, right, so we can both create the channel. And then because we own the platform, we know exactly what works and what doesn't work, and can build on successes like that.
Tyler Suiters 15:56
Well, before we break, Jeff, let's talk a moment about CES 2019 and C Space. As I mentioned, it's the home to content creators for marketing and advertising. It's Hollywood, it's technology, it's this, you know, coalescence of all these communities that now have so much in common? Where is Pluto TV in this ecosystem? And what's your strategy going into CES 2019, they would C Space.
Jeff Shultz 16:23
So CES, no surprise, CES is our Super Bowl, I've been for I think, almost 20 years in a row. You know, we have an alarming number of meetings every year with with all of our key partners. And you know, I'm in a position where I'm meeting with content partners, with distribution partners, with advertisers, all at the same time. And there's really only one place in the world where we can have all those meetings in the space of a week. So it makes for a busy, exhausting, but very productive week. And so and so, you know, that's our approach to it. And we are and we set up at C Space to give us a sort of central point to double showcase Pluto TV, what it is, to introduce ourselves to new partners, but also, you know, as a place for us to meet with all those partners and during the course of that busy week.
Tyler Suiters 17:19
Jeff Schultz is Chief Business Officer with Pluto TV. Head to C Space at CES 2019. And find out what this company is doing. It's at the cutting edge to say the least. Jeff, once again, great to talk to you today. Thanks for all the time and insight.
Jeff Shultz 17:34
Thank you, Tyler.
Tyler Suiters 17:41
Joining me now is Alex White. He is with Pandora where he is the Head of Music Recommendations, and Curation, Programming. Alex, which I guess means you get to hear the latest coolest music and make decisions before anybody else does.
Alex White 17:56
Among many other things.
Tyler Suiters 17:59
Really glad you with today. Thanks so much. Um, how about a quick state of play on the industry right now what you're seeing from the streaming sector?
Alex White 18:07
Yeah, well, thanks for having me. It's great to be here. It's a really exciting time in the streaming music industry, a couple of things stand out. Obviously, the growth in the market overall, is super compelling. The record labels are investing in artists and new music and breaking new acts after years of have a tough business climate. The rise of voice and connected devices makes it a really exciting time for consumers and CE world overall. And lastly, I think the scale with which streaming companies like Pandora can operate and deliver effortless personalized programming and discovery is, is unprecedented. And I think the exciting advances technically have been around reinventing what does a music service look like? From a kind of folder, iTunes model or a world where consumers had to buy each song individually for each album on their own.
Tyler Suiters 19:05
So two words you say there's 10 out to me one is scale, and how quickly you're growing both in an offering and also audience. The other though, is effortless, nothing about what you were doing at Pandora and what the industry is doing in general, seems effortless to me unless you're talking about the consumer experience. So could you expand on that a little bit?
Alex White 19:27
Yeah, we tried it. There's tremendous effort across the company every day to make the end listener experience as effortless as possible. And, you know, that's been Pandora's bread and butter since the beginning of put in a song or an artist and hear great music associated with that, based on the underlying musical properties of the work as well as dozens of algorithms on top of that collaborative filtering and other inputs and signals that we have. I think we try really hard to reimagine what a on-demand streaming service could look like when we launched premium a few years ago. And I'll just give two quick examples of offline listening and playlist building. So we've all had the experience where you go under a tunnel, or jump on an airplane, and you forgot to download the content, or the music or the video that you wanted to hear or watch and realized once only once you lost connectivity, there's too late, where we created something called intelligent offline that pre-downloads, your foremost listen to stations to keep the music going. So when you lose connectivity, we just transfer you automatically to one of your pre downloaded stations. And that's a good example of making it effortless on the listener side of things. But behind the scenes, there's a whole host of reasons why that was never done before, technically to pre cash and not take up much room on people's phones. The second, the second would be around playlist building. And we noticed after the acquisition of audio and with subscribers, that they would start playlist but not finished them. They maybe build orphan playlists, we call them playlist. And so we inserted a magic wand at the end there that uses all our algorithm, algorithms and recommendation sciences to fill out that playlist. So if you start a playlist for a holiday family gathering and you drag in the two songs that you know in love, we can fill in the rest with 30 minute blocks of music and you can edit, of course, if we get it wrong, you can build out a playlist very quickly and easily. And that's a great example of the effortlessness we want to bring to the consumer experience and of course behind the scenes very effortful.
Tyler Suiters 21:39
They're making me feel guilty now, Alex, about all those shoe boxes I had with somewhat started mixtapes, but never really got side b on, right?
Alex White 21:47
Exactly.
Tyler Suiters 21:48
A century ago, it seems. Lean in and lean back is a paradigm we've heard with video, I think primarily, but television that kind of consumption. You all are very much pioneering in that sector, everything from the music Genome Project, to the thumbs up, thumbs down, right, which is now integral to streaming music. What's the latest for you all in that lean in lean back approach to content discovery?
Alex White 22:20
Yeah, again, I think the effortless personalization is what we strive for with all of our programming. And the magic really comes from the combination of humans and machines, the algorithmic and the human curation. We, we say, around the office, lean in for full control and lean back and let it roll. And I think the way that that manifests itself for consumers is, you know, you might want to hear a song on repeat or listen to an album, specifically. And you can of course, search and play all of that content and music on Pandora. But that's when autoplay kicks in. And we were the ones who introduced that concept to the streaming world where instead of having dead air at the end of a song that you searched and played for or an album, when it comes to an end, we transfer the listener immediately into our best in class autoplay technology, which basically uses that song or album or artist as a feed, and creates one of our lean back stations. So I think the consumers in general are used to having, you know, searching, control and hearing things when they want to hear them and what they want to hear. For the vast majority of listeners, actually building playlist and, and programming their own music 24 hours a day is exhausting. And I think that's where the intersection of search and play functionality with a lean back autoplay, and letting people tune it when we get it wrong. But in general, defaulting to letting me decide what we think you might like best.
Tyler Suiters 24:03
Shifting a little bit from music now Alex into obviously, we're talking about a format that all of our listeners are digging right now that is podcasts. What are you doing right now, that's a little different than the fields in terms of podcasting. What has you also excited about this, this exponentially growing both content community and also audience?
Alex White 24:25
Yeah, the growth in podcast has been incredibly exciting to watch. And we've been thinking about it for years. And what can Pandora what is Pandora uniquely positioned to do that others in the marketplace or not. And in the same way, we didn't want to just try to out compete competitors on their strengths around the launch of premium. With podcasts, we think there's a huge problem to solve for consumers around discovery. And we think about the 74% of Americans who don't listen to podcast regularly, and don't know where to start wildly intimidating. To get into podcast if you haven't been listening for years, or know which shows which publishers, and which episodes to start with. Especially as many shows have tons of back catalogue and old episodes. It's frankly overwhelming to consumers. And so that's where solving that discovery problem for the listener. And then on the backend monetization for publishers are kind of the two most exciting areas for us. And Pandora, many people don't realize fells two thirds of all digital audio ads in the US, we have almost 1000 folks in the field selling digital audio ads, one of the best in the business in the biggest digital audio ad market in the world. And so being able to help consumers find great shows they never would have heard of otherwise and monetize those shows for the publishers feels like the one two punch of excitement for us here.
Tyler Suiters 26:02
Well, when you talk about Pandora's place in the audio market, Alex, right now, one of the driving trends in the tech sector and this is a more of a horizontal I think than a vertical but it is voice recognition, right and voice activated digital assistance. And there are a number on the market and we're seeing exponential growth there in U.S. home. Certainly, it CTA one of the trends our research team has been talking about for a little over a year now is voice as the fourth sales channel, right using voice to shop essentially no laptop, no phone, certainly no brick and mortar needed. Where do you see voice going? And we started this conversation, you know, on the heels of what about digital ads. But this is also about the consumer experience, right getting a little more effortless if that's a proper way to put it. What is voice's role moving forward for Pandora?
Alex White 27:01
Yeah, we're seeing in terms of our first party data, millions of people using these connected devices and voice smart speakers every month, 35% year over year growth in in this category for us. And voice is a key part of the future for Pandora. When we think about effortless personalized programming, we think about it, there's almost nothing as effortless as just saying your intention and what you want to hear. We delineate between listeners that have intent of what they want to listen to. And it goes back to what we were talking about earlier with, lean in versus lean back. If you want to hear a specific song, by a specific artist, that's going to be table stakes, of course, and making sure our voice recognition software has the ability to understand multiple languages like the request for a Spanish language song. And that's kind of table stakes. Where I think it gets really interesting especially for Pandora is when the listener doesn't have intent of what to listen to, and just wants and needs to trust a service to provide that lean back listening experience. It's unlike a interface on your phone or on your laptop or your desktop where you can see the playlist in advance, and you understand exactly what's coming down the pipe for see a set of search results. There's almost nothing but trust that the service will play what you want to hear and respect your parental filters and explicit content and play music in the background of your party or your gathering that works for whatever mood and activity or environment you're in. And so the listener with no intent, who wants to hear happy music or music for a rainy day starts to get really fascinating. I think that's where the intersection of a lot of the work we're doing on the programming side intersects with a lot of the work on the search side. And the investment we've made over the years in that algorithmic and human curated approach really starts to pay off when we have to get it right at the beginning because the listener doesn't have a menu of five to 10 things to select from.
Tyler Suiters 29:14
Yeah, so here we are on more than a decade in now, Alex and it sounds like the magic of discovery is still very much a well, I'll call it a thing, right with a capital T but for listeners for your consumers, your customers discovery, still rocks. And it is exciting.
Alex White 29:33
Always, that's one of the things we know. Don't expect to ever change. Although as you get into it with my team, when you when people think about new music and new artists, there's a lot of different flavors of that. Should it be? Do they mean the new music that's come out every Friday and the thousands of new tracks and albums that are released? Do they mean new in the last six months? Do they mean new to them, even though the artist or the music has been around for years, and discerning that that's a very personalized experience of the level of discovery and the type of new that you mean, as a listener? And that's what we had to kind of gauge and lots of mechanisms in place to make sure we're serving the listener what they want hear.
Tyler Suiters 30:16
What about engagement and what you're seeing on the devices we're using to listen, we talked a little bit about voice platforms. But as device-use shifting a little bit, are you seeing a broader panoply of the consumer tech we're using for music streaming?
Alex White 30:36
Yeah, I mean, over 90% of total listening hours on Pandora via mobile and other connected devices. So that was an absolutely not the case. In a world where desktop and platform and web platform was so prevalent, right? There's a massive increase in voice activated devices, which we talked about, but also native auto integrations, we have dozens of integrations with, you know, primary, original OEMs and an aftermarket manufacturers. And as we know, from consumer behavior and research, the vast majority of consumers in America drive commute to work every day in their cars. And we think that's obviously a key area for us to play in and to make sure we are again, as effortless as possible. Or just pushing a button or even easier in the car.
Tyler Suiters 31:34
What are your plans for CES 2019? I don't want to get too much into your strategic mission here. But you know, stepping back, Alex, I think some people would be surprised that someone like Pandora that that isn't necessarily manufacturer has such significance and attaches so much relevance to CES which is a global tech show.
Alex White 31:57
Yeah, we're very excited about CES as we are every year and the partner meetings that we have lined up and are coming together across the board a great we've usually done concerts and taking meetings with our top existing partners as well as new ones that we're excited about. I think the shift with voice and the importance of automobiles and other partners like telcos that we've successfully bundled and partnered with to drive subscriptions is, is probably the most exciting areas for us. But our plans are still coming together.
Tyler Suiters 32:37
So you mentioned a couple of significant vertical areas that are always popular at CES, smart home, vehicle technology, anything around connectivity, or 5g is there one specific area Alex, you're really excited to see as if you'll have any free time there. But the one you really want to explore?
Alex White 33:00
I think connected homes, personally are a fascinating area. For me, as we've talked about with the smart speakers, these are clearly and millions and millions of more homes and you know expect to see major growth around the holiday season this year as we have in the last year. And I spoke at VoiceCon earlier this year, which is Gary Vaynerchuk's voice summit. And just a fascinating vision of a world driven entirely by voice after being so visual with phones in our pockets for many years. And you know when a consumer wants to order something, that the importance of having a brand that people trust and say, hey, I want to hear this on Pandora, because I trust that the autoplay it will kick me into after is best in class or I want to hear this podcast on Pandora because I know that the next episode that they play from another show for me will be hyper personalized to what I want to hear the importance to their critical an even more so than the world We've been living in the last five to 10 years where consumers expect both control and to be able to choose from a menu of options. Just got that much more harder, more difficult.
Tyler Suiters 34:17
Final question of course the most personal as always for you, Alex. I imagine you get it at every turn. But what is your number one station or playlist right now? And I'll step up, I've really been digging Mitski radio. And yes, I use it in the gym, but it's versatile. All right. What about you? What's your favorite, right?
Alex White 34:35
Are you gonna ask if you're a thumber or you just let it roll?
Tyler Suiters 34:40
Depends on the mood, right? It depends. It depends on what my thumb's are otherwise doing.
Alex White 34:48
Great. I was listening this weekend to our yacht rock station, which is one of my personal favorites also have a newborn at home. So listening to the happiest tunes on Earth. Falling in Disney songs and, and all sorts of feel good children's music.
Tyler Suiters 35:07
Love it a window into the mind it Pandora. Alex White, Head of Music Recommendations and Curation Programming. Clearly a big fan of yacht rock as well. Alex, great to have you with us and look forward to connecting at CES come January.
Alex White 35:24
Thanks for having me. We'll see at the show.
Tyler Suiters 35:28
And coming up on the next episode of CES Tech Talk, the changing face of entrepreneurship and a conversation about democratizing access to knowledge and opportunities for business owners.
Carolyn Rodz, CEO & Founder, Alice 35:42
In creating Alice it really was you know how could we create in scale the idea of the advisor, friend and mentor for a business owner that really helps every entrepreneur, regardless of who they are or where they come from navigate this experience of entrepreneurship.
Tyler Suiters 36:04
Alright, we are doing our best to get you CES ready, do yourself a favor, subscribe to this CES Tech Talk podcast. That way you won't miss any of our episodes leading up to CES 2019. Speaking of it is January 8-11 in Las Vegas. The information you need is at CES.tech. As always, none of this is possible without our stars: our engineer John Lindsey and our producer Tina Anthony. You are both the best in the business, as far as I'm concerned. And thank you for joining us. I'm Tyler Suiters. Let's talk tech again soon.